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Sebastian: Usual pros and cons for every band11 Jul 2004 15:10
Through the years I`ve met tons of rock fans, and most of them tend to use the same arguments. This next list isn`t trying to generate stereotipes or generalize anything, but still is good for stats. The list doesn`t include the typical "my band`s guitar/bass/drums/keyboard player or vocalist is the best", which is the #1 cliched argument, as well as "Stairway/Dust In The Wind/Yesterday... is the best song":


Led Zeppelin vs Someone:

- John Bonham always wins "best drummer" polls
- They created heavy metal
- Their improvisation was flawless
- John Paul Jones played everything
- They never sold themselves to the market
- No singles, just albums, perfect albums
- Essentially a live band
- Robert`s high notes in `How Many More Times`
- The Stairway solo
- Jimmy produced them


Someone vs Led Zeppelin:

- They copied Hendrix
- They didn`t go out of blues
- All of their songs are the same
- Jimmy stole a lot of riffs
- Jimmy didn`t have technique
- Robert sang horrible on stage


Beatles vs Someone:

- Beatles firsts (already discussed in this forum)
- Paul played everything
- Sgt Pepper changed the music
- Huge number of hit singles
- Mentioned by nearly everyone in their influences


Someone vs Beatles:

- Without George Martin they`d be nothing
- Crap lyrics (all about love)
- Three-chord songs
- The most over-rated band ever
- Marketing puppets
- "Going after the sun that shines the most"
- Ignorant fans
- Ringo wins all "worst drummer" polls


Bee Gees vs Someone:

- Flawless harmonies
- For the first time since Beatles, 4 singles in the Billboard`s top 5 (1977)
- Elite session songwriters (for Celine Dion, Barbra Streisand, etc)
- Maurice played everything
- Large vocal ranges


Someone vs Bee Gees:

- Disco crap
- Beatles/Beach Boys copies
- Producers marionettes


Queen vs Someone:

- They combined opera with rock
- Brian built his guitar
- Brian & Roger (& John) played other instruments
- Outstanding harmonies
- Freddie`s vocal range
- Guitar "orchestras"
- Bo Rhap on top of the `Best Song Ever` polls
- Champions/Rockyou in sport events
- Four songwriters
- Queen II
- Brighton Rock solo
- Prophet`s Song canon
- Queen 1sts (already discussed)


Someone vs Queen:

- A bunch of gays
- Pop crap
- Led Zeppelin clones
- Famous only because their singer died
- Arrogants
- Fans are ignorant


Kiss vs Someone:

- Oustanding live shows
- Truly original band
- Two wonderful singers
- Two wonderful guitarists
- The only band with heavy hit singles (i.e. while they`re hits or classics, they ddn`t lose their heaviness)
- Huge fan base in USA (The Kiss Army)


Rolling Stones vs Someone:

- The bad guys
- They have kept themselves alive for so long
- Keith Richards tops polls of "the best rhythm guitarist ever"
- World tours


Someone vs Stones:

- Three chord crap
- Beatles copies
- Keith - mediocre rhythm guitarist

1.Sebastian 11 Jul 2004 15:41
And now my usual critical approach:
> John Paul Jones/Paul McCartney played everything

Many fans point out that their band had a multi-instrumentist. Without telling the whole story, if I go to a zoo once that doesn`t make me a zoologist.

> Robert`s high notes in `How Many More Times`

Many singers (including Robert himself) went beyond that

> The Stairway solo

Certainly it`s memorable. There are tons of causes for that though: the song, the production, the guitarist (a less famous player doing the same solo wouldn`t have had the same celebration), etc

> Jimmy produced them

Part of a person`s professionalism, imo, is to accept that if someone does a better job somehwere, let him/her do it. But, for what`s worth, Jimmy had a very singular and nice approach in the mixes and stuff. I quite like them, they sound so garage without losing the nice instrumental and vocal development

> They (Zeppelin) copied Hendrix

I personally doubt so. Page was in a similar time and a similar movement, that`s it. But he was more versatile than just pentatonic solos. Also Hendrix was more than that. As much as Queen were more than Red Special and three-part harmonies, or Beatles were more than silly love songs

> They (Zeppelin) didn`t go out of blues

What about Friends, Thank You, Battle...

> All of their songs are the same


> Crap lyrics (all about love)

Revolution, Fool On The Hill... are important exceptions

> Three-chord songs

I think not even 2% of their catalogue has 3 or less chords

> The most over-rated band ever

Certainly, and in some points, the most under-rated too

> Maurice played everything

I think he was passable in the three instruments. His drumming is just what you`d expect for an amateur guitarist/bassist/pianist

> Large vocal ranges

Except for Maurice, they weren`t so large. The three of them did develope a falsetto voice so natural, I mean, they could maintain it a lot and everything, which isn`t quite easy. The voice combination was gorgeus: Robin could do a woman with his falsetto (listen to the chorus of `How Deep Is Your Love`), while Barry did some balls-pinching screaming that I`m uncomfortable with, but admit is good in its own way

> Disco crap

Their easly material (specially `Odessa`) is almost progressive. More in a Sparks way than in a Pink Floyd way but still...

> Beatles/Beach Boys copies

The Beach Boys model wasn`t strictly followed by any major harmony band I know. Compared to the Beatles the Bee Gees and Queen did very few entire songs sung in 2 part harmony. Abba was very simplistic in the very beginning, with a lot of unison singing. Later on they`d have some atonishing crossing counterpoint lead vocals shared by the girls

> Queen combined opera with rock

Without telling the whole story is like the zoo analogy

> Brian built his guitar

That`d work for best carpenters, not best band. For that effect John Lennon did some paintings, or Sting`s a teacher...

> Led Zeppelin clones

I thought a lot about it today. Perhaps Zeppelin had a huge influence in the band member`s (specially Mercury`s) pre-Queen songwriting, but when the band was formed, and specially after the first album sessions - in which Fred wrote `My Fairy King` - I think his main influence was himself. Roger had a wide mixture: Bowie, T-Rex, Who, Yardbirds, Zeppelin... `Liar` demo version could be considered a "beat Page in his own game" challenge. Specially if we compare the form and some riffs with the Runes Album. BUT, there`s something important: Led Zeppelin IV was released two months after the recordings of those De Lane Lea Demos. So, they weren`t a ripp off. Of course in 1973 when the album came out it`s possible that people thought they were just cloning them (even though both `Liar`, `Rat` and `Jesus` sound much less Zeppelin-esque in the album than in the demos). But it seems that happened the same as in the `Bee Gees First - Please Please Me` case

What amazes me about `Liar` is the originalty of the harmonies too. That kind of "heavy" and powerful approach hadn`t been used yet. `The Who` started it properly a little later, same as Sparks and some others. From middle 70s onwards it`d be much more common - Bon Jovi, Def Leppard, Van Halen, Kiss... I don`t know who might have inspired Fred about the form of `Liar`. I doubt Beatles, and Led Zep material before IV isn`t so similar either. So, unless Fred heard the demo sessions of Stairway in December 1970, I would say perhaps he was already creating his own way. As for a possible influence: Iron Butterfly

More on that later
2.PD 18 Jul 2004 18:07
Led Zeppelin vs Someone:

- John Bonham is the best drummer ever
- Jimmy Page is the best guitarist ever,
- He wrote some of the best riffs ever
- Robert Plant is the best singer and frontman ever
- They invented heavy metal
- John Paul Jones was not only a great bassplayer, but also multi-instrumentalist
- They never sold out with pop singles
- Best live band ever
- Stairway To Heaven is the best song ever.
- Jimmy produced them
- They were a supergroup
- they were diverse
- poetic lyrics
- Classic Rock = Led Zeppelin
- epics (LZ Vs. Queen)


Someone vs Led Zeppelin:

- They didn't invented Heavy Metal, Black Sabbath did.
- they were not diverse, their later stuff was not influental (compared to the early numbered albums)
- Jimmy stole lots of riffs
- Jimmy was sloppy sometimes on stage.
- Beatles wrote better songs.
- Stairway is overplayed.


Beatles vs Someone:

- Beatles firsts
- Quality meets quantity.
- they were multi-instrumntalists
- Sgt Pepper (best album ever) revolutionized rock music
- Their music was original compared to their influences
- Great vocal harmonies
- Number of hit singles
- Mentioned by nearly everyone as influences
- they were the most diverse band ever
- Ringo is the most underrated drummer
- They have dozens of underrated songs
- Paul is the best bassplayer ever
- they recorded Strawberry Fields on a four track machine
- The key change in "From Me To You"
- Their chord changes are superb, unexpected.
- No wonder everyone analyses and covers their music.
- Superb, sincere lyrics
- most covered band ever, yesterday is the most covered song ever.
- they belonged to the drug culture
- the social change of the sixties was mainly Beatles' achivement
- Beatles were directly responsible for the declination of the USSR or
the 1968 student uprising in Paris
- without the Beatles there wouldn't be progressive rock, there would not be bands.
- They turned pop/rock music to how we know it today.
- they are in the same class with the breatest classical composers
- They still sound fresh
- What an evolution within only seven years.


Someone vs Beatles:

- Without Epstein they would not have been as succesfull
- Without Martin their music wouldn't be as well arranged and produced.
- Too much love-related lyrics
- Three-chord songs, no wonder only rooky guitarist play their songs.
- The most over-rated band ever
- In the early days the were marketed as boygroups.
- Their competition was stronger than many expect.
- Ringo was not a great drummer.
- They weren't virtuosos.
- The seventies brought us more artistic music.
- their firsts are highly debatable
- They sound dated


Queen vs Someone:

- They combined opera with rock
("they combined progressive rock with pop" would be a more proper thing to say).
- Brian built his guitar
- Outstanding harmonies
- Freddie was a great singer
- Brian's distinct guitar sound and style
- Bo Rhap is the best song ever
- rock anthems, like Champions/RockYou
- Four songwriters
- Early albums were artistic
- Queen II and ANATO are best album ever
- Queen 1sts
- Most diverse band ever
- They stole the show at Live Aid


Someone vs Queen:

- A bunch of gays (see the video of Breakfree)
- Pop crap, they sold out.
- Once they rocked but in the 80-ies they s*cked.
- They were not as original and influental as Led Zeppelin / The Beatles.
- Famous only because their singer died
- They are arrogant
- WWRY/WATC and BohRhap are overplayed, got tired of them.
- they are overrated
- they were a mediocre stadium/glam rock band
- They are not in the same league with the greatest rock bands not to mention great classical composers.
- cheesy lyrics
- too much fillers
- overproduced songs
- they could not perform these songs exactly as they were recorded (eg. the opera section of BoRhap)
- Low number of epics.
3.Sebastian 18 Jul 2004 23:48
> - Stairway To Heaven is the best song ever.

I personally agree with that statement. Not in terms of "best", but the greatest, in the matter that without being a single or having a video clip it`s the one song that synthesises rock music, and includes that intro that literally millions of people play.

> poetic lyrics (Led Zeppelin)

Yes, that`s what I wanted to comment when I turned on the pc. I think in the early days Robert was so keen in developing intelligent lyrics. Later on he knew that anything he wrote would be received as pure gold, so he didn`t try so hard anymore imo.

> They didn't invented Heavy Metal, Black Sabbath did.

That`s the most usual "Black Sabbath" vs Someone too

> their later stuff was not influental (LZ)

Yeah, unfortunately, Led Zeppelin`s late period, along with Queen`s synth era (particularly Hot Space and The Miracle) belong to the group of "the most hated by the most loved".

> Quality meets quantity (Beatles)

I`d never heard that. Love that quote. It`s the best way I`d describe them

> Their music was original compared to their influences

I think that there isn`t any major band that doesn`t adjust to that statement. Perhaps Bon Jovi is a little too Van Halen, only that they added some classical piano, and the drummer is not so accomplished

> Great vocal harmonies (Beatles)

`Because` is the a nice example of a very famous no-hit. Not that everyone knows this song, but a lot of rock-fans do because it`s a very common argument for "best vocal" threads. More no-hit famous tracks for average rock-fans are Moby Dick, Coma and Brighton Rock

> they are in the same class with the greatest classical composers

Yes, that argument`s used a lot. Fortunately Queen fans seem to be more respectful of those conclusions, since months ago queenzone forum people nearly executed one person just because he/she said `Innuendo` should be as respected as Mozart compositions
4.Sebastian 18 Jul 2004 23:51

Someone vs Beatles:

- Cliched
- They`re just like those modern teenage groups
- Famous only because John was shot

GnR vs Someone:

- Axl had a thousand voices (or something to that effect: "Axl sang many octaves...")
- Slash had more feeling than any other guitar player (also applied to Brian vs someone)
- November Rain speaks for itself
- No fillers
- They marked a generation

Someone vs GnR:

- Axl sounds like a cat
- Nirvana could beat them
- They only lasted 5/6 years and then flopped
- Steve`s a crap drummer
- Famous only because of St. Louis Incident

Nirvana vs Someone:

- Music reachable for not so technical people
- Under-rated
- Marked a generation
- Most teenage bands base their repertorie on them
- Everybody starts in the guitar by learning `Come As You Are`
- Best unplugged ever
- `Smells Like Teen Spirit` revolutioned the music

Someone vs Nirvana

- Mediocre players (and synonims: "simple music, anybody can play better...")
- Kurt didn`t sing, he just yelled
- Famous only because of Kurt`s suicide
- Nobody will remember their songs in 5 years

David Bowie vs Someone

- Multi-talented
- Multi-instrumentist
- Has written loads of songs
- Always one step beyond the rest
- Adapted to any style
- The best frontman
- Huge vocal range
- Complicated songs

Someone vs Bowie

- Mick wrote the songs for him
- Going behind the shinniest sun
- Famous only because he said he was gay
- Marc Bolan is far superior

Paul vs Someone

- Wrote a classical piece
- Influented more bass players than anyone else
- Knew his way with the lead guitar
- Amazing pianist
- Played over 20 intruments
- Huge vocal range
- Yesterday the most covered song
- The best frontman (which I agree btw, just look at `Hey Jude` in the last tour)
- Could write in nearly any style
- Very creative
- The most innovative musician ever
- Was knighted
- Wrote most of the biggest hits (Yesterday, Let It Be, Hey Jude, Get Back...)

Someone Vs Paul

- Opportunist Worm (my brother uses that argument a lot)
- Far inferior to Lennon
- Out of pitch voice
- Not a virtuoso
- Famous only because he got the best of both world after John died
- Marketing puppet
- Useless solo career, since he doesn`t have `My Sweet Lord` or `Imagine`, just for-a-year hits, nothing everlasting
- Lives on the shadow of the Beatles
- John wrote and sang more in the Beatles
- Yellow Submarine is crap (God knows why people hate this one so much)

John Lennon vs Someone

- Deep lyrics
- The world wouldn`t be the same without him
- Biggest musical genius ever
- Amazing voice
- Without the rest he still was the best (Imagine, Woman...)
- The most influential of the four Beatles (I agree btw)
- Wrote and sang more than Paul in the Beatles
- His riffs are memorable
- Wrote the most influential songs (I agree, even though not so mammooth hits, I think Day Tripper, Revolution and others were more influential)

Someone Vs John

- Useless lyrics
- Far inferior to Paul
- John wrote very few mega-hits (Help, A Hard Day`s Night, Come Together) compared to Paul (Michelle, Eleanor Rigby, And I Love Her, Love Me Do, etc)
- Not so trained voice (kind of raw)
- Only famous because he`s dead
- Not a virtuoso

George Harrison vs Someone

- His riffs are memorable
- His solos are everlasting
- Being good guitarist is not only play fast
- Could do anything complex and make it look easy
- Wrote the two best songs in `Abbey Road`
- Amazing evolution in very few time

Someone vs George

- Paul recorded the solos for him (strangely enough, I get that a lot!)
- The others told him what to play
- Never in the level of J&P
- `My Sweet Lord` is a rip-off
- Not a virtuoso
- John helped him out with lyrics

Ringo vs Someone

- Played what the songs needed
- The most underrated drummer ever
- Learnt by himself
- `Rain`

Someone vs Ringo

- Very poor drummer
- Talentless guy who had the luck of being in the best band
- Paul played drums better than him
- Only composed a handful of songs
- Crap solo career
- George helped him finish his songs
- Couldn`t play solos

Axl vs Someone

- A thousand voices
- Played piano
- Played guitar
- Composed `November Rain`
- Very original frontman

Someone Vs Axl

- Oportunist
- Mediocre musician
- Cat voice

Freddie vs Someone

- Wrote Bo Rhap
- Sang with Monstserrat Caballe
- Stole the show at Live Aid
- Nobody could ever replace him

Someone Vs Freddie

- Didn`t know over 3 guitar chords
- Gay
- Arrogant
- Didn`t write much in later days
- Mediocre pianist
- Famous only because he died

Brian vs Someone

- Had the best feeling
- Could play at any style
- Sang and played piano too
- Played harp
- Composed a lot
- The best arranger
- The best producer
- Built his guitar
- Eric said wonderful stuff about him
- The nice guy of rock
- Brighton Rock solo
- Guitar orchestras

Someone Vs Brian

- Always at the shadow of Freddie
- His function will never be to be the leader, but to be at the side of him
- Slower than Steve Vai
- Not as technical
- Weak voice

Roger vs Someone

- Played guitar, bass and keyboards. And sang
- Composer

Someone vs Roger

- Not John Bonham
- Brian`s puppet
- Raw voice
- Unable to write hits, other than pop crap

John Deacon vs Someone

- Quiet but efficient
- Great songwriter
- Few songs but all great

Someone vs John

- Wrote pop crap
- Didn`t sing
- Never did virtuoso performances
5.Sebastian 31 Jul 2004 21:43
Some additions:


Doors vs Someone

- The best lyrics
- Legendary band
- Legendary frontman

Someone vs Doors

- The band was just one person (also used against Queen btw)
- Jim is way overrated
- Pure drugs
- Famous only because of scandals


Someone vs Kiss:

- Satanists
- Sold out in the 80s
- Too much show
- Not technically skilled
- Nobody mentions them as a top band


U2 vs Someone

- The best frontman
- The best tours
- The most original guitar player
- They evolved from nothing to everything
- All of their songs are everlasting

Someone vs U2:

- If we leavwe the guitar player without a delay machine he can`t do anything
- Very simple tracks
- The band is only 1 person / 2 people (I kind of agree actually)
- Too much programmed drums


Korn vs Someone

- They departed rock history in two (ridiculous, but I`ve heard it)
- Truly original

Someone vs Korn

- Forgettable music
- Market puppets


Foo Fighters vs Someone

- The two best drummers of the world are in the same band (I agree)
- They invented alternative rock

Someone vs Foo Fighters

- Dave will never be as good frontman as Kurt
- "Alternative rock" is just a way to hide they don`t know anything
- Nonsense lyrics


Blink 182 vs Someone:

- They`ve lasted a lot for being neo-punk (yes, Mark & Tom have been together over a decade, and that`s reaaaaly a lot)
- They`ve evolved a lot
- They have great polyphony (laughable but people say it)
- They lead a generation
- Uncomparable drummer
- Deep lyrics

Someone vs Blink:

- Gross
- They`re mediocre
- Nobody will remember `All The Small Things` after 10 years (so far it`s 6 and it`s still famous)


To be continued...
6.Agogobell 24 Jun 2012 17:00
Honestly. Freddie, a mediocre pianist? Find me a rock and roll piano player who could play those arpeggios at the end of My Fairy King!

Post was edited on 24 Jun 2012 17:01
7.Sebastian 27 Jun 2012 11:23
 This is not something I believe, but something members of Freddie's or Queen's hatedome often use.

BTW, those arpeggios aren't hard at all. Virtually any person going further than Grade III on piano (of which there are literally thousands) could play that. Freddie was an exceptional pianist, but not because of the alleged difficulty of what he played. Most of what he played was very simple, but he did it in a unique way and performed (rather than just played) professionally. There's much more than simply doing the notes.
8.George Prentis 22 Aug 2012 15:08
ABBA vs Someone
- From Sweden so hard to breakthrough UK and US pop markets
- They are the most successful act to win Eurovision (when it was taken seriously), which is how they broke through
- Members were in a professional and personal relationships, these clashed sometimes
- Could write disco to sad ballads
- All members could sing, some better than others
- Had 9 UK number ones and 30 of their 100 released songs went to number 1 somehwhere in the world
- They sang in harmonies, however many parts to each one
- They have released songs in different languages (German, French, Spanish, English) even though they were from none of those countries
- Their music wasn't always the same genre, they tried recording songs in different genres
- They worked with each other for ten years, three of which were when their personal relationships ended
- Including their own works, covers of their works by others and sampling they spend a total of 40 weeks on top of the UK charts
- Sampled by Madonna, covered by Westlife, Erasure and many other artists
- Band most wanted to reform by a British poll
- They were undoubtedly the most successful act commercially of the 70's
- According to claimed sales, they are the second best selling band in the world behind the Beatles (Abba have 375 mil records sold)*
- Have had a musical adaptation of their songs on stage and on film (the latter being the Greatest selling muscial movie in the world)
- Never tried to go with the latest trend, always tried to have their own unique image which is why their music has been considered "timeless" by some.
-Very catchy melodies with generally very meaningful lyrics (listen to "The Winner Takes It All")
- They only ran for ten years and (with the help of the musical) sold a lot more than some of the acts who have been going for much longer (like Madonna, The Bee Gees and Led Zeppelin) 
- Their music is still very well known today and I think is appreciated a lot more than it was now then in the 70's and 80's
- Continue to sell 2-3 million records every year

Someone vs ABBA
- Considered by hard core rock fans (their music and themselves) as "gay" (which is strange considering they were all heterosexual?!)
- For the first half of the ABBA years, their manager had to help them write songs especially the lyrics
- The two ladies didn't write the songs, only the two men
- Couldn't rock a stadium out
- The ladies only sang, did not play any instruments which is why...
- Abba had to recruit outisde people to play bass, drums and lead guitar in the studio and in concert
- Were incredibely uncool/unpopular in the 1980's
- Their mega hit "Dancing Queen" has been voted the Gayest Song of All Time
- Their fashion ideas were "puzzling" to say the least
- Their music has been considered as cheesy pop
- More popular with women and gay men
- Always acted as if they were living out a soap opera, accordingly

Most of these are my opinions apart from when stated.
* At the closing of Mamma Mia (their musical) at the Prince Edward in London, Benny, Bjorn and Anni Frid (three of the four members of Abba) came on to accept from Pete Waterman (of Stock, Aitken, Waterman fame) a plaque stating they had sold 360 million albums. This was in 2004. If you do your maths and taking into account their yearly profit, they should have sold at least 376 million records.
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