HOME FORUM

Login






Register
Search
List of users


PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS FORUM IS TAKEN FROM PREVIOUS VERSION OF QUEEN SONGS SITE.
Path: Queen Songs - Forum - Song Analysis: New version of my site!Bookmark and Share

Forum

--- Only registered users can post a message ---pages 1
Sebastian: New version of my site!18 Mar 2004 16:11
Hi everyone. Please visit the new version of 'Bechstein Debauchery'. It's really great, except for the guest and studio sections which are a bit raw currently but I'll improve

sebastian.queenconcerts.com

Thank you
1.Sebastian 19 Mar 2004 17:09
Some ideas I have for additions next week:

- A kind of dictionary (what's an analog synth and a digital synth, what's acyclic, etc)
- I should have listened to my brother when he suggested to do it in php. So I will do it that way soon
- Some kind of interactivity, but I can't think of how. I wouldn't like to put a forum anyway

Any more suggestions/ideas?

Thanks to everybody
2.PD 19 Mar 2004 20:45
I just started to browse it. That's going to be one of the "most wanted" sites. That's why it has to be bettered time to time.

Now just a short sidebar note on the guitar that you can see (not hear) on the Headlong video clip: that's Brian's first acoustic guitar that he swapped to that "Jealousy"-guitar around 1965. Maybe this guitar can bee sen on this photo:
www.queenzone.com
www.queenzone.com

A "Leroy Brown"-related quote (1974, Melody Maker):
"The camper aspects of Queen are displayed in Leroy Brown, a gay, Dixieland tune that Freddie insists is inspired by the Pointer Sisters."
3.Sebastian 21 Mar 2004 01:34
Thanks for the photos. They're both from the Hairfred - the 'Jealousy' guitar-. I'm actually using the first one in the site right now. I'd love if there was a direct quote from Fred about 'Leroy'. I still have to read a lot of early transcriptions and articles in Japanese. There's a lot of exciting stuff there.
4.PD 21 Mar 2004 06:44
I'M GOING SLIGHTLY MAD
> Even transposing the song it's still full of flat/sharp notes
I may be wrong, but as I know flat and sharp notes mean not perfetcly pitched notes. I'd use the words "black key notes", or flat-side key (eg Eb Major) + use of non-diatonic chords.

> The windchimes are real after the first chorus, in 2:06 they're done by Brian
> with guitar harmonics.

This guitar-chimes theory (that I also support btw.) is still under debate and too brave thing to write down as facts, until it gets confirmed.
5.Sebastian 21 Mar 2004 17:04
Flat/sharp: Thanks for that, I'll correct it very soon. That kind of "explanations" has been well received by visitors although they have asked me to do a more "basic" or "understandable" list. That's why I thought of the dictionary too

Chimes: My brother is trying to get me a free server to put mp3, even if they're short. That can help me in the near future to get more direct explanations. I'm thinking of having something like this: The 'Slightly Mad' chimes are <link here>. Guitar chimes sound <link> this way. Windchimes sound <link> this way, so you can note that it's ... (or another solution is "so you can pick what do you believe").

That's good to for the '39 harmonies, specially if the same lines are sung by e.g. Fred in one channel, Brian in the other. Separating just those voices and putting them in my site to be compared is a much better feature than just the text.

Was It All Worth It: Different interpretations can result in different meter countings. According to mine, non 4/4 meters are those ones:

3/4: Before the riff is done by guitar
9/8: Before first verse
5/4: Before second verse, and before th guitar solo
2/4: At the end of the solo, & fade out of the orchestra
15/16: Two measures of the orchestral bit. Tuba and double bass are chromatic descending: from A to E in the first measure, from C to G in the second
7/8: Just before the last riff (in synth pad)
6.Sebastian 23 Mar 2004 15:57

Some stuff I have to keep present: add the info on the studios used for BBC sessions, and all in all improve both sections (studio and guest). But I'll do that later on, meanwhile I'm more inspired for the song story. Some kind of ideas I have that I'd love if you can help me decide:


A proper (although not very scientific) song analysis focused of course in who's responsible for it. I'm thinking of this new format:

- Introduction: That's the text I have under the song title. Instead of putting explanations (like the songwriter trademarks) I'd better just comment it in a general way. Mentioning less theoretical parts, like how did I get to know the song, how much do I like it, how much do fans like it averagely, how much did the band like it, etc

- Origin & Recordings: I won’t mention the songwriter. I’ll just put the place and date of recording and the place and date of writing. The bad thing is that for many songs we don’t know or even suspect anything (e.g. White Man). Perhaps I should add something else… any ideas?

- Songwriter: This is a new subtitle. I’ll just focus in who wrote it. I have two possible ideas, one is in a kind of essay (one paragraph for the structure, one for the rhythm, one for the harmony), and the other is a list (check currently my ‘All God’s People’ part). It doesn’t matter if the song’s already credited to one of them. I want to make the “what if everything was credited to the band” rule in this subsection. I mean, we all know Rog wrote Fight From The Inside because of the credit, but I can explain here why it’s possible to know it’s Roger’s even if it was credited to the band, and even if Fred sang it etc

Instruments: I’d like a better title but I can’t think of anything... anyway, about the content: I’d love to discuss (in general way of course) the arrangements, and at the same time mentioning the gear they used. My approach is more prosaic, so I want to keep them together. I really want the “audio” help as son as I can get it. Particularly for synth parts – I can put samples of some part (e.g. the intro of ‘One Vision’) done in different keyboards (the K250, the Jupiter, the Dx7…) so I can prove that they used the DX-7. But if I do it that long perhaps I should divide ‘Instrumental Arrangement’ and ‘Gear’ separately.

Vocals: Again I want to discuss the arrangement (and who might be the person behind it or if they were worked out by the entire band), as well as who sang each part of the harmonies. For ’39 more properly I’m thinking of adding a map, something like this:

Lyrics ---------------------Part ------ Channel ---- Person
“Write your letters”-----High ---- Rear Left --- Brian
…….


Again file samples would be a definitive help here. I just have to get someone that can mix the DTS files properly (like creating a stereo file with rear right and front left and then deleting everything common to both), but I’ll guess since in two weeks I’ll be living in Japan that I can find more engineers there.

Quotes: I don’t know if I should collect them at the bottom of the article, or if I put them in the related sections (songwriter, instruments, etc)


For the main of ‘Song Section’ I’m thinking of dividing it in subsections too: intro, fake legends and the articles I’m making of each one as songwriter.

For the ‘Instruments Section’ I want to explain the mechanism of each instrument (including guitar and piano and stuff like that). Also I want to add amplification.

Any more suggestions?

7.PD 23 Mar 2004 17:00
meters: I see you have used a half-time beat compared to my interpretation.


> 3/4: Before the riff is done by guitar
The last sustained note I interpreted simply as a fermata.

> 9/8: Before first verse
that's what I've interpreted as 5/4

> 5/4: Before second verse, and before th guitar solo
that's what I've interpreted as half measure.

> 2/4: At the end of the solo, & fade out of the orchestra
I interpreted it as uneven phrasing (normal 4/4 measures).

> 15/16: Two measures of the orchestral bit. Tuba and double
> bass are chromatic descending: from A to E in the first
> measure, from C to G in the second
I interpreted it as 3+3+3+3+2+2 pattern, that I don't transcribe with odd meters.


Introduction: general style analyis, "forerunner" songs, influences, minimal and simple theory-talk only where it is necessary.

It's a good idea to introduce those instruments (picture and sound sample): koto, vibrafon, etc...

the "quotes" section is good in its recent form IMO.

"Fake legends"- I don't think it needs a separated section.

8.BrianMay 23 Mar 2004 23:05
No offence, but isn't it a bit hypocryte to make a section to distroy fake legends, and at the same time make new fake legends by saying John sang vocals on some songs.

Why don't you put '???' when you don't know 100% sure who sang.

Freddie-Roger-Brian-??? like that?

So you won't get confused people and fake legends who say John sings
9.Sebastian 23 Mar 2004 23:40
----------


To Niek:

I'm sorry did I say "you idiots have to believe John sings"? NO!

Read carefully: "That is something I do mention quite a lot (for example in '39), but I don't have any irrevocable proofs".

"Anyway, as we have arguments in both favour and opposition of it, I just request you to follow your own beliefs, if you are one of the few people that thinks he sings then do it, if you aren't, just ignore those comments. In a lot of parts I put vocals recorded by "all of them" (e.g. Thank God It's Christmas), in those cases if you don't believe Deacon sings just read them as "all singers" or "all three", if you do read them as "Roger, Freddie, John and Brian". That's it."

And I'm 100% sure John sang in '39 at least, but as I said, I ask the favor to all the visitors to follow their own senses. If I said "it's a concrete fact that John sang here and there" then it's fair to say I'm creating a legend or something like that. SoI don't see where I do confuse people.

-----------

To Denes:

> Introduction: general style analyis, "forerunner" songs, influences, minimal and simple theory-talk only where it is necessary.

What's "forerunner"? And what do you mean by neccesary? I didn't understand this quote of you

> It's a good idea to introduce those instruments (picture and sound sample): koto, vibrafon, etc...

Definitely. I'm thinking too (if I ever have the possibility) of doing proper comparisons in audio. For example put the bass of AOBTD played on a Musicman, then played by a Fender, then the studio version... so I can demonstrate that he used the Musicman for the recording, or say "they sound so similar so I can't tell exactly" but each visitor can have the same tools as myself, so probably someone can recognise easier.

> "Fake legends"- I don't think it needs a separated section.

It's a little too late since I already wrote it :) but I haven't uploaded it yet. Anyway I changed the title since fake legends is a bit too strong (and I don't need or want a hostile environment in my website). I just put "legends". I think I must better discuss their origins more than just "kill" them.

About 'Worth It' I'll write the two sides of the story so my opinion won't be "imposed" (is that a word?). Anyway, do you know if there's some kind of textbook or some way to find out exactly if it's 4/4+5/4 or 9/8 or doubts like that?
10.PD 24 Mar 2004 06:34
> What's "forerunner"?
OK that's a bit vague... I meant something like:
"March Of The Black Queen" > Bohemian Rhapsody
"Fun It" > Another One Bites The Dust

> And what do you mean by neccesary?
That's also something vague I know. For "Bicycle Race" we can mention that it's clever, has many (not counted) key changes, and maybe also the meter change can be mentioned.

"Descending line cliches" and polyrhythms, transposed hooks are too technical terms to mention (Bohemian Rhapsody).

> I think I must better discuss their origins more than just "kill" them.
yes.


> Anyway, do you know if there's some kind of textbook or some way to
> find out exactly if it's 4/4+5/4 or 9/8 or doubts like that?
This particular question is about figuring out the 1/4 beat. There must be text-book method for this, but I can't give you any reference. I chosed the "fast" beat, because
1) the 3+3+3+3+4 figures are applied to 1/8 notes in all songs that I know.
2) the main riff can be transcribed without 1/16 notes.


In Fat Bottomed Girls one can apply a slower beat than what I've used.
In The Lap Of The Gods...Revisited  can be transcribed in either 3/4 or 6/8.
11.Sebastian 24 Mar 2004 13:35
I'm currently writing some introductory essays (meanwhile I have one about structures, one about Rog's songwriting and one about Fred's). When I have enough knowledge or I feel prepared I'll make a modulations and a rhythm introduction too. Jist a couple of things for the moment:

How can I call the kind of progressions going by semitones? I mean in Bo Rhap this one: B Bb A Bb B, or the F F# G G# in the scales part.

Do you like this kind of instroductions to instruments?
sebastian.queenconcerts.com

And what about the samples? Should I use a sample of the instrument itself or a sample of the instrument as used in the band? I'm thinking of some ideas now... for example I can play the 'Loser In The End' overdub in a cowbell and record it, then in a marimba, then in a xylophone, then in a vibraphone and then in a glockenspiel and upload all of them, and also the Queen recording (only that part of course), so I can demonstrate my point (and at the same time I can make a more accurate conclusion)

I thought of something for the orchestral interludes of 'Was It All Worth It': I have some M1 samples, so I think with some effort I can record/program myself the interludes, so I can have a new feature in this song: Click here for listening the brass section, click here for listening the string section... click here for all the orchestra. That can work until they release DTS for the Miracle album.
12.Sebastian 25 Mar 2004 23:30
Very soon I'll upload some updates, nothing huge but many many little details corrected (some links inside the site, better navigation in the instrument section...). I finished my first big analysis - Was It All Worth It -. I hope sooner or later I can have an article like that for all the songs. I thought perhaps I should open a new chapter about production (double tracking, chorus effects, etc), but perhaps it'd be too much and my GnR site seems to be posponed more and more. Just some quick questions, specially for PD and Niccola: which would you consider is the most complex and the least complex song from each one (inside the band)?
13.PD 26 Mar 2004 06:35
Most complex - least complex songs: generally the ones with longest/shortest analysis. Liar is a song with "clever" (ie acyclic) form, but with simple harmony.
14.Sebastian 26 Mar 2004 07:14
Of course that's something subjective, but not completely, I mean, picking between Innuendo and Was It All Worth It is more matter of opinion but picking between We Will Rock You and My Fairy King is different. So, without counting the arrangements (no matter if it has counterpoints or guitar orchestras or seven part harmonies, just counting the structure, rhythm and harmony), my (current) selections are:

Roger: Action This Day - Fight From The Inside (perhaps)
Freddie: March Of The Black Queen - Hangman
Brian: Father To Son/White Queen - Sleeping On The Sidewalk
John: You And I - I Want To Break Free/Arboria

What do you think?
15.wiz eutropio 26 Mar 2004 23:34
well sebastian, my exact name is "nicola" and not "niccola" (can you correct this in your site?)... anyway that's what i think:

freddie: my fairy king, the march of the black queen, bohemian rhapsody, was it all worth it
brian: all dead, white queen, father to son
john: you and i, need your loving tonight
roger: innuendo
16.Sebastian 27 Mar 2004 13:48
Thanks for the answers and for the correction, it'll be right in the next update. 'Innuendo' is Freddie's though :)
17.Sebastian 27 Mar 2004 23:55
I just uploaded an update, including an essay on each one's songwriting, better navigation in 'gear', and detailed analyses in 'Was It All Worth It', 'Killer Queen' and 'Save Me'. You're all invited to visit them:

sebastian.queenconcerts.com
sebastian.queenconcerts.com
sebastian.queenconcerts.com
18.BrianMay 29 Mar 2004 21:11
I took a better look on your website today, congratulations!

It's much better and much more complete then your previous one!
19.BrianMay 29 Mar 2004 21:12
What about putting up short <10 second samples of the 'unusual' instruments (Koto, Harp, Marimba, Cowbell and so on)
20.Sebastian 29 Mar 2004 23:53
You're totally right, that's very neccesary. I'll do that asap
21.PD 30 Mar 2004 07:54

Unfortunately I had hardly time lately to check out the new stuff. This morning I only read the WIAWI analysis. The songform immediately made me associate with Staying Power, and I was pleased to see that you also pointed it out.
I have transcribed the form somewhat different. As I didn't split the Verse into Verse and Bridge becasue it sounds so very as one unit, in spite of the second half appears later as pre-Chorus (or something like that).


> are two measures in 15/16 (or a 3+3+3+3+2 pattern),
It's 3+3+3+3 + 2+2 pattern of eighths that they transcribe into two 4/4 measures.
This particular rhythm-pattern has four longer and two shorter beat:

1    2    3    4     5   6
taaa-taaa-taaa-taaa- taa-taa


> Chromatic line cliché (A Ab G Gb F E & C B Bb A Ab G).
That's called chromatic scale fragment. Line cliché is chord progression where only one line moves chromatically.


Killer Queen
> This is one of the rare cases where the tonic isn't the top voice, but the middle.
I don't think it's a particularly rare case.

22.Sebastian 31 Mar 2004 15:46
Tonic voice: You're absolutely right. There are many cases, specially live, in which the middle voice (Fred) is harmonised high (Rog) and low (Brian)
23.PD 31 Mar 2004 16:54
The "tonic voice" is not the proper expression I think. Let's use "lead vocal" instead. First I thought that you refer to the inversion where the top voice is the root.

24.Sebastian 31 Mar 2004 17:13
In either case it's not that rare, as you said. I'm analysing 'Las Palabras De Amor' in this moment... I think I'm going to make a kind of new feature: the most visited analysis of the month gets revised and completed (with the songwriter research and the sound samples). Perhaps for the most visited instrument too. So far 'Innuendo' is the song with more visitors but I'd rather wait to the GVHIII release. Now that I think of it maybe a good option would be to make a deal with Dave Richards (if I ever get to communicate with him again), and he could provide "the story of this month's song". That'd be great :) but if I can't get that I must have a kind of B-plan anyway
25.Sebastian 10 Apr 2004 03:25
For the next update - in a couple of months perhaps - I`ll put one analysis per album. Any help with songwriting trademarks is much apreciated (specially related to melody or chord progressions), also any debatable part of the current article (who sings what, how did you figure out its 6 string...) so I can prepare the sound samples. Candidates so far are:

------

I:

My Fairy King. Easy to prove it`s Freddie`s, plus most harmonies are by him (which economises the "maps"). Possible sound samples: piano solo (I`ll try to boost it, or perhaps record it myself - where I live now there`s a Yamaha in the lobby, so I can do some good stuff there -), guitar intro (backwards and normal), noticeable differences between BBC and normal version

Liar: I find this one`s more neccesary since many people think Brian is the writer of the music (due to that quote of the official biography). The maps would be so extended this time, and hard to do since there`s no dts track of this one. But it would be a very complete analysis - including  demo and BBC takes. There`ll be a lot of samples since many parts are sung by different people in the three versions.

Modern Times Rock N` Roll: It`s somehow fair to compare the three versions too. I`d love if there were dts tracks of this album so I could separate the guitar solo, I really like it.

----------

II:

Father To Son: I`d love if Brian ever commented if he had it all in his head (as Fred with Bo Rhap and the others) or if he received help from the guys in the structure and stuff. I`d love to put some bass samples

White Queen: More or less the same story. I have to investigate if the piano version was born live or in the studio

Fairy Feller`s Master Stroke: I`m dying to add proper samples of the harpsichord and guitar solos. It`s easy to prove it`s Freddie`s, and there are plenty of quotes (compared to other songs of that era)

------------

SHA:

Killer Queen - Already done

Brighton Rock - I have to get some way of separating the backing track (more to the point the centre channel), to put some bass samples and prove my "not live backing track" conclusion.

Dear Friends - Simpler article, but I can analyse Brian`s piano style and the sound of the instrument - Yamaha, Bosendorfer, Bechstein?

-------------

NATO:

39 - I`m going to put samples for the over discussed vocal parts.

Bo Rhap - Some uncovered operatic bits wouldn`t hurt. It`s also very very easy to make a demonstration that it`s Freddie`s

I`m In Love With My Car - Roger`s double tracked voice and head E4s are so worth to put online. I love his bend after the bridge.

-----------

DATR:

Somebody To Love: Neccesary due to the absurd "Roger wrote it" rumour. It`s very easy to prove it`s Freddie`s since his style is very clear in this track. Sound samples are good since I have the dts channels

Tie Your Mother Down: Roger`s head voice E4 deserves its place as a sound sample. In general terms the harmony vocal map is a nice idea.

You And I: It`d be a complete joy to analyse

-----------

NOTW:

Spread Your Wings: Delightable in the matter of structure and guitar map. Neccesary for the piano thing - John vs Fred - and the 6 string vs 12 string guitar thing.

Who Needs You: As Denes said, a very a-typical song for the band but very John-esque in terms of songwriting. It`s worth mentioning. Also I`ll try to find out the brand of the spanish guitar.

We Are The Champions: Chosen mostly due to the presence of dts channels. But it`d be wonderful to upload just the bass part of the first verse

---------------

Jazz:

Don`t Stop Me: Vocal map is long but nice. Good song for an analysis of Freddie`s piano playing and - since there`s a karaoke version - I can get some bass samples too.

Bicycle - Chosen because of the DTS stuff. Also it`s full of interesting details to upload in sound: tiny cymbals, uncovered guitar "orchestra", bass slides, Fred`s bass voice, and a comparison of voices in the question part "say rolls... say god..." between studio (Roger & Fred) and live (Roger & Brian)

Fat Bots - Chosen because of DTS. I want to upload the intro, you all know why

--------------

The Game:

Save Me - Done. I`m thinking of maybe putting a conclusion at the end of the harmony table. Something like: Top voice Fred&Rog, middle voice Brian&Brian&Roger...

Sail Away Sweet Sister - Always a favurite of mine. I want to show uncovered guitar and synth parts, and an a capella portion of Fred`s voice.

Don`t Try Suicide: Bass samples. I don`t know the song so much but this is a good chance to learn about it.

----------

To be continued
pages 1